Dr. Ricky Rood's Climate Change Blog

Belief and Knowledge and Humans and Nature:
Posted by: Dr. Ricky Rood, 10:47 PM GMT on July 02, 2012 +13
Belief and Knowledge and Humans and Nature:

Revised: 20120703

I am starting this entry from a previous blog, Rhetoric Again - Cycles. I got some interesting comments as well as a couple of letters for that entry. To set the tone, here is a thought from the end of that blog.

There is little doubt that humans are the dominant life form on the planet today. We shape every ecosystem. We consume all forms of energy. Like the balances between plants and animals in the past we change the atmosphere and the ocean. Not only are we a dominant life form, we have this amazing ability to extract rocks and liquids and gas from the Earth and burn them. We have the ability to push around land, to make concrete, to remove mountains, and build islands. We are, therefore, not only biological, we are geological.

With this notion, I place humans as a force of nature – as part of nature. Because we have the ability to remember, reason, develop and accumulate knowledge, then unlike other parts of the natural world, we have the ability to make decisions that influence our future. Therefore, our role in nature, in the natural world is unique. To be clear, that uniqueness is not in our ability to change the environment, but in our ability to understand the consequences of those changes and the ability to anticipate and influence the future.

I bring up this idea of humans as a reasoned biological and geological force for several reasons. First, I believe that to set the world into two divisions, that which is natural and that which is human, is both a false and dangerous division. Focusing on climate change, it is a division that sits at the foundation of those who argue that the climate is full of natural cycles, and that the current warming is just part of that natural cycle, and hence there is no need for us to be concerned. Or alternatively, there is no need for us to modify our behavior because it is all a force of nature, and we don’t have any influence over nature. (see also).

This is a belief – mine, that humans are part of nature. But many others see humans as outside of nature. The outside perspectives are not simple. For example, there are those who see humans as a disturbance to nature, and there are those for whom humans have divine providence over nature. That is the second point I want to make, the very foundation of how we think about climate change, our environment, and our place in nature is belief based. It is a belief base associated with our personal identity.

I have been motivated to think about what we believe and how this impacts our behavior on climate change for many years. For the sake of this blog, that motivation rises from how do we communicate climate change? Some scientists spend a lot of time thinking about how to communicate their work; in fact, research sponsors often require plans for communication, outreach and broader impacts. Many scientists, trained in a discipline of evidence-based knowledge generation, fall naturally to presenting evidence-based arguments, with the idea that ultimately the evidence-based argument will be convincing beyond reasonable doubt. In many ways this invites an argument more suitable to our approach to legal problems. We the scientist will present the evidence base. This will stand in contrast to the arguments of the non-scientist. There will, ultimately, be judgment in favor of the evidence base, because, well, it becomes self evident. This form of argument does not recognize that we often look at evidence and make decisions that deny the existence of that evidence. We make decisions that align with, our desires, our beliefs and what we want to believe.

I have written about some of these communications issues, and they are compiled here in What to Do? What to Do?. What I want to state more explicitly than I have stated before is the importance of the recognition of the belief-based argument. First, I naturally contrast the belief-based argument with the knowledge-based argument, which is not really the right contrast. The belief-based argument is, in fact, informed by knowledge, but it does not give high weight to science-based knowledge. Hence, it is not especially useful to pose a belief-based versus a knowledge-based argument. I have already stated that both sides of the argument are belief based and that both sides on the argument are informed by knowledge. Hence, it is easy for these arguments to fall into an attack on identity – I the scientist work from the foundation of knowledge and the ability to generate knowledge. You do not. This is not useful.

Second, I have used belief-based argument with the idea that it might be viewed as a politically based argument or even a religion-based argument. I have often referred to the politically based argument in my blog entries, and I have stated that once in a political argument, where the foundation is not primarily science-based knowledge, there is really little purpose in arguing over facts and evidence-based knowledge of the Earth’s climate. There is even evidence that introduction of science facts increases the polarity of political arguments (here). In such an argument, people may be working from a different base of facts. This is especially evident in the arguments over biological evolution, divine creation and, say, the observation-based scientific description of progression of Earth’s life and climate.

Where am I planning to take this blog? The first place I want to take it is that the communication of climate change is complex and individual. If we mash together evangelical, conservative, and Republican as dismissive of climate change and view a concern for climate change as secular, liberal and Democratic, then we do disservice to all. It does not take much effort to reveal evangelical, conservative, Republican organizations that are concerned about and vested in ways to address climate change. That is why in the 2012 political environment, a focus on exposing those seeking solutions is a more useful way forward than perpetuating the political arguments and despair over the political response. There is no simple key that will be uncovered by a compelling presentation of knowledge; there is no single approach to communication that will be universally effective. Successful communication is purpose-based and recognizes the valid points of view brought to the table by all constituencies. It often requires overcoming barriers of prejudice.

The next place I want to take this blog is to return to the idea of natural cycles – climate variability. We have been faced with many environmental challenges. I am sitting in St. Cloud, Minnesota, in a region that was largely deforested many years ago, on the Mississippi River, which has too much nitrogen-based nutrients in the water. A few miles back I saw a bald eagle, a species that was endangered by DDT. We eliminated the use of DDT, and we have seen the return of the bald eagle and the ospreys. Why can we make that decision? Lot’s of reasons, and an important one is the easy identification of cause and effect and seeing the return of the eagle over one’s lifetime after DDT was banned. Climate change does not have that easy cause and effect.

Responding to climate change does not have the narrow focus of regulating an insecticide and saving a grand bird. It is not easy to see the benefit of regulating carbon dioxide emissions. Those benefits are many years in the future, and the near-term cost is high. It is like people not taking a medicine that has a 90% chance of curing them from a slowly progressing disease because they don’t understand how the drug they ingest might work; they don’t want to introduce alien chemicals into their body. They seem to be doing okay right now. And if we look at the consequences of climate change, they are frightening, threatening, and they are our fault. We don’t accept fault easily; we have a mandate to feel that we are right. We don’t like change forced upon us, either individually or collectively. We fall back to our beliefs, our identity.

After the blog Rhetoric Again – Cycles, I was asked whether or not I considered man part of nature? Yes, I am saying that man is part of nature. But I don’t think that nature proceeds as a completely unrestrained force. We are many, and we influence nature. In fact, we are at this time the most dominant force of nature. However, we are also able to investigate nature, develop knowledge, and anticipate scenarios for the future. Therefore, we can influence the course of nature. My belief is that we have the responsibility to act on this knowledge. And like people who get caught in cycles of behavior, perhaps trapped by psychological pitfalls, with recognition of our role in nature, we have the ability and the opportunity to take advantage of our knowledge.

To my students I try to teach that they separate what is known from what they believe and what they want to believe. Advocacy needs to be recognized by the advocate, and advocacy changes one's role in decision making. The advocate identifies with an issue and is trying to elevate one position relative to other positions. The convincing advocate for addressing climate change is anchored in a knowledge base that is drawn from scientific investigation. With a separation of what is known, from what is believed to be known, and what is desired based on belief, the climate-change advocate becomes more effective in the decision making process. It is then easier to incorporate climate knowledge into planning and policy and societal response becomes possible.


r
  Permalink | A A A
Reader Comments
Display: 0, 50, 100, 200 Sort: Newest First - Order Posted
Viewing: 1 - 51

Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6Blog Index

1. Patrap 10:55 PM GMT on July 02, 2012    
"The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die."
Member Since: July 3, 2005 Posts: 370 Comments: 111244
2. Misogynist 12:14 AM GMT on July 03, 2012    
If the USA stopped producing CO2 today. I mean totally. I see no change occurring in the global climate. I have not read anything or heard of an article that says it would. It's a global problem and can only be solved globally. If the action you take doesn't impact the problem and causes you considerable harm at the same time, why take said action. My personal belief is we have already gone to far and that maintaining the resources to mitigate the harm that is going to occur should be are number one priority. Thanks for the article. Thomas H.W. Luke
Member Since: May 27, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 32
3. OldLeatherneck 12:16 AM GMT on July 03, 2012    
Quoting Patrap:
"The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die."


"The work MUSTgo on,
the cause MUST endure,
the hope MUST live
....and the dreams WILL never die."

Member Since: May 2, 2012 Posts: 0 Comments: 150
4. spbloom 12:22 AM GMT on July 03, 2012    
Quoting Misogynist:
If the USA stopped producing CO2 today. I mean totally. I see no change occurring in the global climate. I have not read anything or heard of an article that says it would. It's a global problem and can only be solved globally. If the action you take doesn't impact the problem and causes you considerable harm at the same time, why take said action. My personal belief is we have already gone to far and that maintaining the resources to mitigate the harm that is going to occur should be are number one priority. Thanks for the article. Thomas H.W. Luke


Well, yeah, I mean, if we do anything but take care of number one like we always have who knows where it could end. Jeez, with that kind of thinking, misogyny itself could be endangered and we can't have that, can we?

/snark

Member Since: May 12, 2010 Posts: 0 Comments: 298
5. OldLeatherneck 12:27 AM GMT on July 03, 2012    
Dr. Rood,

Your post was eloquently written. I must say that I am obviously on one side of the divide when our blog moves into the political realm. However, I didn't come here to pontificate my personal political or religious beliefs.

I came here to learn more about the science of Climate Change.

I came here to ask questions.

I value being able to particpate in an open learning environment.

If this blog does not become part of the future, the future is the far less for it!!

Member Since: May 2, 2012 Posts: 0 Comments: 150
6. deometer 1:52 AM GMT on July 03, 2012    
"This is a belief - mine, that humans are part of nature."

There are few understandings more profound than this. Our image of the world shapes the way we orient ourselves to the world and treat the world (and each other, really). Believing ourselves to be separate from Nature, or even for nature to be mechanistic, drives not only our distrust in nature (as a poet once said, "I, a stranger and afraid, in a world I never made"), but our violent treatment of it. Even the idea of "coming into the world" is misguided. We don't come into it, we grow out of it.

Philosopher Alan Watts had an amazing, expressively beautiful way of making this crystal clear. I encourage everyone to listen to the two following lectures, both clocking in around an hour apiece. They go by fast, though, and are brimming with wisdom:

Alan Watts - Man in nature
Link

Alan Watts - Our Image Of The World
Link

There are plenty of other clips of his worth listening to on YouTube, several are more manageable 5-10 minute segments.
Member Since: July 3, 2012 Posts: 0 Comments: 4
7. Some1Has2BtheRookie 2:28 AM GMT on July 03, 2012    
Deleted
Member Since: August 24, 2010 Posts: 0 Comments: 4102
8. cyclonebuster 3:17 AM GMT on July 03, 2012    
Quoting Some1Has2BtheRookie:


I think you are looking at it backwards. If the U.S. does not limit its CO2 production then it does not matter what the rest of the world does. Per capita, we are still the world's #1 producer of CO2. In total annual tons of CO2 produced, as a nation, we are only slightly exceeded by China and they have 3-4 times the population the U.S. does. So, if the U.S. does not restrict its CO2 output, then it does not matter what the rest of the world does. .... Sooner or later, the rest of the world is going to get pissed at the U.S. and I cannot blame them!


God help us all if China and India exceed us per capita in Co2. Earth will recover but we shall perish.....
Member Since: January 2, 2006 Posts: 127 Comments: 18739
9. spbloom 5:37 AM GMT on July 03, 2012    
"(...) advocacy elevates one source of knowledge above the others."

I think that statement is entirely wrong as a general proposition. One obvious problem is that not all sources of knowledge are equal, e.g. this blog vs. WUWT, and if they're not equal then the correct one is elevated, regardless of whether everyone admits that.

You also seem to be advocating for "knowledge-based decision making" to be considered as distinct from advocacy, which is confusing if not just contradictory.

It starts to sound awfully post-normal a la Mike Hulme, a path I would hope you choose to not go down.
Member Since: May 12, 2010 Posts: 0 Comments: 298
10. Dr. Ricky Rood, Professor
12:57 PM GMT on July 03, 2012
   
Excellent comment ... will require me to clarify myself over the course of the day.

r



Quoting spbloom:
"(...) advocacy elevates one source of knowledge above the others."

I think that statement is entirely wrong as a general proposition. One obvious problem is that not all sources of knowledge are equal, e.g. this blog vs. WUWT, and if they're not equal then the correct one is elevated, regardless of whether everyone admits that.

You also seem to be advocating for "knowledge-based decision making" to be considered as distinct from advocacy, which is confusing if not just contradictory.

It starts to sound awfully post-normal a la Mike Hulme, a path I would hope you choose to not go down.
Member Since: January 31, 2007 Posts: 264 Comments: 199
11. BobWallace 2:57 PM GMT on July 03, 2012    
Quoting Misogynist:
If the USA stopped producing CO2 today. I mean totally. I see no change occurring in the global climate. I have not read anything or heard of an article that says it would. It's a global problem and can only be solved globally. If the action you take doesn't impact the problem and causes you considerable harm at the same time, why take said action. My personal belief is we have already gone to far and that maintaining the resources to mitigate the harm that is going to occur should be are number one priority. Thanks for the article. Thomas H.W. Luke



"Too far" is a world in which life as we know it would be very, very difficult. It would be physically impossible to mitigate against a 12C global temperature rise, and that's the route we are on.

Member Since: February 22, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 1344
12. BobWallace 3:54 PM GMT on July 03, 2012    
If you want a glimpse of some of the worst of global warming, scientists suggest taking a look at U.S. weather in recent weeks.

Horrendous wildfires. Oppressive heat waves. Devastating droughts. Flooding from giant deluges. And a powerful freak wind storm called a derecho.



I like that some climate scientists are starting to take off the gloves...

"This is what global warming looks like at the regional or personal level," said Jonathan Overpeck, professor of geosciences and atmospheric sciences at the University of Arizona. "The extra heat increases the odds of worse heat waves, droughts, storms and wildfire. This is certainly what I and many other climate scientists have been warning about."

Kevin Trenberth, head of climate analysis at the National Center for Atmospheric Research in fire-charred Colorado, said these are the very record-breaking conditions he has said would happen, but many people wouldn't listen. So it's I told-you-so time, he said.


This is a nice one-page description of what global warming is bringing us. Might be a good thing to pass along to others who might not be a plugged in to what is happening....

Link
Member Since: February 22, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 1344
13. ycd0108 4:59 PM GMT on July 03, 2012    
That lecture above woke this sleeper. I'm the guy in the back row usually snoring gently.
Thing is: the folks I argue with don't seem to be making much of an effort to analyse the grounds THEY stand on.
So I'll try to incorporate whatever I picked up - oh wait; there's a transcript of the lecture right here.
Will there be a quiz?
How much will it count for the final?
Member Since: January 1, 2008 Posts: 141 Comments: 3430
14. Daisyworld 7:53 PM GMT on July 03, 2012    
Quoting RickyRood:
... Successful communication is purpose-based and recognizes the valid points of view brought to the table by all constituencies.


This seems (to me at least) the primary issue in communicating climate change. Defining what constitutes a "valid" point-of-view would be helpful. I would argue that mainstream modes of communication - that being the various forms of broadcast media consumed by the majority of the public - may have a purpose, but are selective on what a valid point of view is.

As you alluded to, recognition of a valid POV is purely belief-based. If your beliefs are based on multiple and varying sources of information, it will bias your judgement of what is considered a "valid" point-of-view. However, if your beliefs are knowledge-based, where information is derived from a pool of data that remains constant (i.e., historical climate data and measurements), recognition of a what a valid POV is more likely to be constant.

I think what it comes down to is a question of information literacy. You cannot be successful in communicating a purposeful message when your audience is not literate in the information from which you draw your message. Your POV will be considered invalid and not worth discussion by those with alternate and/or varying sources of information for their belief-base. Instead, their own POV will hold more weight, and the result of the attempt at communication will digress back into the tug-of-war between opinions rather than a dicussion stemming from a common information pool.

P.S. - If you choose to leave WU due to the recent sale, please let us know where you choose to go next. I find your blog to be refreshingly informative and poignant; a much needed respite from the pundit hyperbole of the internet.
Member Since: January 11, 2012 Posts: 4 Comments: 315
15. OldLeatherneck 8:48 PM GMT on July 03, 2012    
Quoting Daisyworld:
As you alluded to, recognition of a valid POV is purely belief-based. If your beliefs are based on multiple and varying sources of information, it will bias your judgement of what is considered a "valid" point-of-view. However, if your beliefs are knowledge-based, where information is derived from a pool of data that remains constant (i.e., historical climate data and measurements), recognition of a what a valid POV is more likely to be constant.


For a brief period, about 10 years ago, I was part of a corporate Knowledge Management Team. In order to have a conversation about what "Knowledge-Based Communications" should be it is first necessary to define the two basic types of knowledge, which are:



Explicit Knowledge: This is fact based knowledge which is obtainable by reading, studying, observing, listening. For example, knowing the high temperature in your home town yesterday is explicit knowledsge. Theoretically, 90% of all knowledge is Explicit.

Tacit Knowledge: This level of knowledge is more intuitive and gained via experience. Someone with tacit knowledge in a specific discipline has an understanding or knowledge about how all of the little pieces of explicit knowledge fit together.

Many young scientists and engineers know the laws of physics pertaining to their discipline, They've memorized the formulas, they know how to conduct the tests and quite often can perform a perfunctory analysis of the results. With the exception of child prodigies and some geniuses, it takes years to achieve mastery in any field of endeavor.

The earth's climate is a very, very complex system. Understanding how all of the pieces fit together is no small feat that can be learned in short time frame, even with extensive education, experience and mentoring.

That's why, those of us amateurs, here on the blog need the tuteledge of Dr. Rood, Dr. Masters and Angela. Obviously, we have some regular posters who have a great deal of valid information and in-depth knowledge on various aspects of climate change. We need all of them to keep providing valid information and data so that individually our knowledge bases can expand.
Member Since: May 2, 2012 Posts: 0 Comments: 150
16. theshepherd 8:55 PM GMT on July 03, 2012    
PS: With the sale of WU, I am not sure about the future of this blog. Stay tuned.

**************************************

Indeed, Ricky.
It will not be of of your choosing, I suspect.

Your grapevine is probably telling you something that you may have "used" to be able to disclose.

It's a different ball game now. Be careful what you wish for. Notoriety, rhetoric and grants don't mix.


Member Since: September 11, 2008 Posts: 9 Comments: 8189
17. spbloom 12:50 AM GMT on July 04, 2012    
Thanks, Ricky. I'll have time tomorrow for a more careful read and some comments.
Member Since: May 12, 2010 Posts: 0 Comments: 298
18. Some1Has2BtheRookie 1:05 AM GMT on July 04, 2012    
Deleted
Member Since: August 24, 2010 Posts: 0 Comments: 4102
19. ycd0108 1:10 AM GMT on July 04, 2012    
"Worlds They Rise and Fall
Within her eyes."
Can't remember the next line.
Nor who wrote it.
But your lecture/blog got me thinking: Maybe we are evolving.
Member Since: January 1, 2008 Posts: 141 Comments: 3430
20. theshepherd 2:08 AM GMT on July 04, 2012    
Quoting Some1Has2BtheRookie:


Hi, shep.

You seem to have the belief that Professor Rood, Dr. Masters, Angela Fritz and absolutely nearly every climatologist have redefined the Laws of Physics, the Laws of Thermodynamics and Chemistry to "fit" the AGWT. The exact opposite is true. The AGWT is derived from what all of these studies tell us about AGW. The AGWT was not plucked from thin air, so to speak, but, rather, is built upon these well established scientific studies. There is not anything that the AGWT tells us that is not well founded in these different studies. Furthermore, the observations we have witnessed concerning AGW are what these studies will tell us to expect when we use the AGWT for explanations of what is being observed. There is NO other competing theory that can even come close to explaining the observations that have been made. NOT ANY of them even come close.

A warming Sun does not explain why night time temperatures are rising, night time low maximum temperature records are being broken much more often than the night time low minimum temperatures are being broken. This could not happen unless heat from the Sun was being trapped in our atmosphere. There is no other valid explanation for this to be happening. Look at our moon, for it shares the orbit around our Sun as we do. Yet, when the Sun drops below its horizon it still has rapid and extreme temperature drops as it always has before. .... Why?

You also seem to be of the impression that TWCC may end all blogs and discussion of the AGWT on WU. Should this prove to be true, will it also invalidate the Laws of Physics, The Laws of Thermodynamics and Chemistry? Or even the AGWT itself? Let us take it a step further. Let us say that we had not gained the intellect to know anything about Physics, Thermodynamics or Chemistry, but we had learned to exploit fossil fuels as an energy source. Would our lack of knowledge, in these studied fields, also cause us to be incapable of invoking their properties? In other words, would our ignorance negate the effects of what will affect us all? ... If you did not know that the flame is hot, would it still burn you if you put your hand in it?

Tell us, shep. How does not discussing the AGWT somehow invalidate the AGWT? What can you offer us that would invalidate the AGWT?

Ignorance my be bliss, but ignorance is not a salvation.
that is exactly the rhetoric i speak of...a
nd be sure to continue telling people what they think
Member Since: September 11, 2008 Posts: 9 Comments: 8189
21. Patrap 2:23 AM GMT on July 04, 2012    
We have many advantages in the fight against global warming, but time is not one of them. Instead of idly debating the precise extent of global warming, or the precise timeline of global warming, we need to deal with the central facts of rising temperatures, rising waters, and all the endless troubles that global warming will bring. We stand warned by serious and credible scientists across the world that time is short and the dangers are great. The most relevant question now is whether our own government is equal to the challenge.

JOHN MCCAIN, speech, May 12, 2008

Fresca?
Member Since: July 3, 2005 Posts: 370 Comments: 111244
22. Ossqss 2:31 AM GMT on July 04, 2012    
Hummm, lets see,,,,, WU sold, Nea missing in action?

Connect the payment dots anyone?

Now, Mr. Rood, your entire post is based upon science accuracy, no?

Considering the entire CAGW philosophy is based upon modeling, how can you claim such accuracy?

You cannot!

Tell us how well the models do with clouds and even the PDO? They don't even consider them to any extent as just a few simple examples.

Tell us how the models do with simple reconstruction of projections based upon the observations we have had over the last 20 years. They don't do well do they?

You proclaim a view point of an ideologue, not a scientist, and it is quite disappointing.

You may be able to dissuade the students you have control of, but you will never baffle anyone who is knowledgeable of the weakness of the actual science that you try to embellish. It is just wrong what you do with your esoteric methodologies.

Lipstick on a pig is what I see. Plain and simple!

Seems you and Masters just can't handle the truth as is exemplified by the current and continued behavior.

Step up and do the real science you so selfishly disrespect and ignore.

You know how many holes are in what you state, and yet you continue to state them with no remorse.

Member Since: June 12, 2005 Posts: 6 Comments: 8154
23. Some1Has2BtheRookie 2:48 AM GMT on July 04, 2012    
Deleted
Member Since: August 24, 2010 Posts: 0 Comments: 4102
25. Ossqss 2:59 AM GMT on July 04, 2012    
Quoting Some1Has2BtheRookie:


"You seem to have the belief ..." is far from saying, "you will only believe ...".

Discredit, by using facts, anything that I have said in my post. Doing less, such as using your limited and counter productive remarks, is an attempt to become an escape artist. ....

What was he going to say?

I do not know. He escaped without saying anything!


The truth is, shep, and try as you might, you cannot escape the science behind the AGWT. ... But, you will try. Will you not?


You just don't grasp that of which is in front of you.

Perhaps you could learn how to learn?

Edit>> I will include the full episode so you don't have to find part 2. Sound familiar?

Member Since: June 12, 2005 Posts: 6 Comments: 8154
26. OldLeatherneck 3:13 AM GMT on July 04, 2012    
Quoting Patrap:
We have many advantages in the fight against global warming, but time is not one of them. Instead of idly debating the precise extent of global warming, or the precise timeline of global warming, we need to deal with the central facts of rising temperatures, rising waters, and all the endless troubles that global warming will bring. We stand warned by serious and credible scientists across the world that time is short and the dangers are great. The most relevant question now is whether our own government is equal to the challenge.

JOHN MCCAIN, speech, May 12, 2008

Fresca?


OMG!!

I knew they have all shifted away from beliefs they once held.

They (Most conservatives & Dems from WV and LA) have been bought and paid for. Anyone want to venture a quess who paid them off?
Member Since: May 2, 2012 Posts: 0 Comments: 150
27. Patrap 3:24 AM GMT on July 04, 2012    
Quoting OldLeatherneck:


OMG!!

I knew they have all shifted away from beliefs they once held.

They (Most conservatives & Dems from WV and LA) have been bought and paid for. Anyone want to venture a quess who paid them off?



Worked for Chevron Offshore mid 90's and was a Union Bricklayer doing Refinery Refractory Work(Catcracker and Furnaces) usually for Pullman Kellog back then in the late 70's.

Nola is Home so Indeed...we know.

Crawfish?
Member Since: July 3, 2005 Posts: 370 Comments: 111244
28. Daisyworld 3:28 AM GMT on July 04, 2012    
Quoting Ossqss:
Hummm, lets see,,,,, WU sold, Nea missing in action?

Connect the payment dots anyone?

Now, Mr. Rood, your entire post is based upon science accuracy, no?

Considering the entire CAGW philosophy is based upon modeling, how can you claim such accuracy?

You cannot!

Tell us how well the models do with clouds and even the PDO? They don't even consider them to any extent as just a few simple examples. Tell us how the models do with simple reconstruction of projections based upon the observations we have had over the last 20 years. They don't do well do they?

You proclaim a view point of an ideologue, not a scientist, and it is quite disappointing.

You may be able to dissuade the students you have control of, but you will never baffle anyone who is knowledgeable of the weakness of the actual science that you try to embellish. It is just wrong what you do with your esoteric methodologies.

Lipstick on a pig is what I see. Plain and simple!

Seems you and Masters just can't handle the truth as is exemplified by the current and continued behavior.

Step up and do the real science you so selfishly disrespect and ignore.

You know how many holes are in what you state, and yet you continue to state them with no remorse.



Now THAT is a perfect example of invalidating a knowledge-based point-of-view with a belief system based in information illiteracy.

Ossqss, I'm not going dignify your opinions with counter-arguments of the reality of climate change. Primarily because all you're doing is attacking the presenter and not the argument. This is one of the most common fallacies of logic and rhetoric, demonstrating that you are here to disrupt the flow of communication with your own biased point-of-view, and not add any substantive debate to the subject.

I his current post, Dr. Rood isn't even discussing the science; he's discussing how to best communicate between people of different beliefs. In your attack comments within previous blog posts, I've watched as you've made your beliefs plainly clear without even an ounce of consideration to the opinions of others. This further demonstrates that when it comes to communication, you are part of the problem and not the solution.

So please do us all a favor and cease your commenting. Personally, I find your attacks tiresome and repugnant, and they do nothing but spread discord.
Member Since: January 11, 2012 Posts: 4 Comments: 315
29. Some1Has2BtheRookie 3:32 AM GMT on July 04, 2012    
Deleted
Member Since: August 24, 2010 Posts: 0 Comments: 4102
30. Some1Has2BtheRookie 3:35 AM GMT on July 04, 2012    
Deleted
Member Since: August 24, 2010 Posts: 0 Comments: 4102
32. Patrap 3:39 AM GMT on July 04, 2012    
We dont need no education

we dont need no thought control,

No dark sarcasm in the Classroom

Teacher's leave them Kid's alone..


Member Since: July 3, 2005 Posts: 370 Comments: 111244
33. Some1Has2BtheRookie 3:44 AM GMT on July 04, 2012    
Deleted
Member Since: August 24, 2010 Posts: 0 Comments: 4102
35. BobWallace 3:56 AM GMT on July 04, 2012    
Quoting OldLeatherneck:


OMG!!

I knew they have all shifted away from beliefs they once held.

They (Most conservatives & Dems from WV and LA) have been bought and paid for. Anyone want to venture a quess who paid them off?


There's the fossil fuel campaign donations.

There's also a group of right-wingers who have defined their own reality and if you need their votes then you have to voice their craziness.

Look at poor Willard. He wants to be president so badly that he'll say things that he has to know are batshit crazy just to secure that "27%" of the vote. He has zero chance of winning if they stay home on election day.
Member Since: February 22, 2011 Posts: 0 Comments: 1344
36. OldLeatherneck 3:59 AM GMT on July 04, 2012    
Quoting Patrap:
Nola is Home so Indeed...we know.

Crawfish?


My wife was born and raised in the Golden Triangle of SE Texas. Since we met and married we make 2 or 3 treks a year to Louisiana, just for the Cajun food.
Member Since: May 2, 2012 Posts: 0 Comments: 150
37. Some1Has2BtheRookie 4:13 AM GMT on July 04, 2012    
Deleted
Member Since: August 24, 2010 Posts: 0 Comments: 4102
38. Dr. Ricky Rood, Professor
4:56 AM GMT on July 04, 2012
   
The science of climate change is based on observations. The models are constructs of physical, chemical, and biological conservation laws anchored in those observations, and the model's ability to represent processes and project changes. Climate change, like much of modern science, uses models to synthesize complex systems. As a designer of one of the key algorithms used in U.S. climate models, I am quite confident that that development was motivated by and evaluated with observations.

As for the representation of clouds, you repeat an untruth perpetuated for many years. In fact, I had a letter in March Scientific American about that very subject.

r






Quoting Ossqss:
Hummm, lets see,,,,, WU sold, Nea missing in action?

Connect the payment dots anyone?

Now, Mr. Rood, your entire post is based upon science accuracy, no?

Considering the entire CAGW philosophy is based upon modeling, how can you claim such accuracy?

You cannot!

Tell us how well the models do with clouds and even the PDO? They don't even consider them to any extent as just a few simple examples.

Tell us how the models do with simple reconstruction of projections based upon the observations we have had over the last 20 years. They don't do well do they?

You proclaim a view point of an ideologue, not a scientist, and it is quite disappointing.

You may be able to dissuade the students you have control of, but you will never baffle anyone who is knowledgeable of the weakness of the actual science that you try to embellish. It is just wrong what you do with your esoteric methodologies.

Lipstick on a pig is what I see. Plain and simple!

Seems you and Masters just can't handle the truth as is exemplified by the current and continued behavior.

Step up and do the real science you so selfishly disrespect and ignore.

You know how many holes are in what you state, and yet you continue to state them with no remorse.

Member Since: January 31, 2007 Posts: 264 Comments: 199
39. Daisyworld 5:24 AM GMT on July 04, 2012    
Quoting RickyRood (in response to Ossqss):
The science of climate change is based on observations. The models are constructs of physical, chemical, and biological conservation laws anchored in those observations, and the model's ability to represent processes and project changes. Climate change, like much of modern science, uses models to synthesize complex systems. As a designer of one of the key algorithms used in U.S. climate models, I am quite confident that that development was motivated by and evaluated with observations.

As for the representation of clouds, you repeat an untruth perpetuated for many years. In fact, I had a letter in March Scientific American about that very subject.


You're a better person than I, Dr. Rood. I've dealt with this so much in the past, I can't get myself to offer the reasonable reply anymore…
Member Since: January 11, 2012 Posts: 4 Comments: 315
40. Daisyworld 5:28 AM GMT on July 04, 2012    
Quoting Some1Has2BtheRookie:



Daisyworld, meet ossqss. ..... He is well known for making unsubstantiated claims, science claims that no one else knows anything about and posting the occasional good video. He is usually good for comic relief, although he does not view himself that way. ... Kinda sad, really. He should see himself that way. ;-)


Thanks for the introduction. I'll be a little more lighthearted about it in the future.
Member Since: January 11, 2012 Posts: 4 Comments: 315
41. cyclonebuster 5:35 AM GMT on July 04, 2012    
Quoting RickyRood:
The science of climate change is based on observations. The models are constructs of physical, chemical, and biological conservation laws anchored in those observations, and the model's ability to represent processes and project changes. Climate change, like much of modern science, uses models to synthesize complex systems. As a designer of one of the key algorithms used in U.S. climate models, I am quite confident that that development was motivated by and evaluated with observations.

As for the representation of clouds, you repeat an untruth perpetuated for many years. In fact, I had a letter in March Scientific American about that very subject.

r








What would the models tell me of my Tunnel idea Dr. Rood? Remember I can place Gulfstream SST SETPOINT anywhere between 70 and 90 degrees F.
Member Since: January 2, 2006 Posts: 127 Comments: 18739
43. theshepherd 11:38 AM GMT on July 04, 2012    
Rookie
Where in either of my two posts above did I state an opinion on AGW?
I have no idea what the contractural agreements are between WU and TWCC.

But I dont think that open hostility is one of them.

If I were on the board and strongly supported all aspects of AGW I would vote to remove the comment option on Feature blogs and let Dr Rood or the other authors speak for me to get my point accross. At least any rhetoric coming from them is tempered with modern corporate practice.
The last thing I would do is link to this page as it is currently fashioned with a yard full of attack dogs and smart asses.

EDIT:
TWCC will spend a good deal of effort to promote their new purchase. At least that's the way most of corporate America works. They pretty much know what sells.

Is there at least a remote possibility that has been the subject of my posts?

But then I'll have to wait for you to tell me what I'm thinking. I'm just an idiot.

Seariously?




Member Since: September 11, 2008 Posts: 9 Comments: 8189
44. greentortuloni 3:04 PM GMT on July 04, 2012    
"The last thing I would do is link to this page as it is currently fashioned with a yard full of attack dogs and smart asses"

The only trolls on here are the ones who deny the world is warming or that the cause is carbon emmisions.

It would be possible to deny these positions and not be a troll, but to date, perhaps not coincedentally, all of the posters with such positions have been trolls.

When the denialist trolls are not here, this is actually a fun and informative blog.
Member Since: June 5, 2006 Posts: 0 Comments: 1187
45. iceagecoming 3:26 PM GMT on July 04, 2012    
Many unfounded references to CO2 but the end result is the same, cycles.


(Snippet)

Our ice age

110,000 to 12,000 years ago

The cool temperatures of the Quaternary may have allowed our brains to become much larger than those of our of hominid ancestors. While that's still open to debate, it's plausible that the most recent glacial period left its mark on our species.

Neanderthals, with whom we shared the planet until just before the last glacial maximum, 20,000 years ago, may have struggled to survive as the rising and falling ice ate away at their habitat – although many other explanations for their extinction have been suggested. What is beyond doubt is that Homo sapiens survived and turned to farming soon after the ice retreated, setting the stage for the rise of modern civilisation.

As the glacial period drew to a close and temperatures began to rise, there were two final cold snaps. First, the chilly "Older Dryas" of 14,700 to 13,400 years ago transformed most of Europe from forest to tundra, like modern-day Siberia. After a brief respite, the Younger Dryas, between 12,800 to 11,500 years ago, froze Europe solid within a matter of months – probably as a result of meltwater from retreating glaciers shutting down the Atlantic Ocean's "conveyor-belt" current, although a cometary impact has also been blamed.

Twelve thousand years ago, the great ice sheets retreated at the beginning of the latest interglacial – the Flandrian – allowing humans to return to northern latitudes. This period has been relatively warm, and the climate relatively stable, although it has been slightly colder than the last interglacial, the Eemian, and sea levels are currently at least 3 metres lower – differences that are being closely scrutinised by researchers keen to understand how our climate will develop.

But this respite from the ice is likely to prove short-lived, at least in geological terms. Human effects on the climate notwithstanding, the cycle will continue to turn, the hothouse period will some day come to an end – and the ice sheets will descend again.


Link
Author:
Michael Marshall

13:32 26 November 2009

Michael is the Environment reporter at New Scientist.

He writes life and environment news, and has a weekly column, Zoologger.

He joined New Scientist in 2007 after several years as a neuroscientist. He has a Master's degree in Psychology from the University of Cambridge, and an MSc in Science Communication from Imperial College London



Member Since: January 27, 2009 Posts: 21 Comments: 852
46. greentortuloni 3:33 PM GMT on July 04, 2012    
Quoting iceagecoming:
Many unfounded references to CO2 b............ He has a Master's degree in Psychology from the University of Cambridge, and an MSc in Science Communication from Imperial College London





Speaking of the devil...
Member Since: June 5, 2006 Posts: 0 Comments: 1187
47. Some1Has2BtheRookie 5:33 PM GMT on July 04, 2012    
Deleted
Member Since: August 24, 2010 Posts: 0 Comments: 4102
48. Patrap 5:39 PM GMT on July 04, 2012    
Seems a pair has been a missing well, you know where for a long time.


Owls Hoot at night.

Eagles Fly by Day.

.."we can dance if we want to"...
Member Since: July 3, 2005 Posts: 370 Comments: 111244
49. Neapolitan 6:22 PM GMT on July 04, 2012    
Quoting Ossqss:
Hummm, lets see,,,,, WU sold, Nea missing in action?

Connect the payment dots anyone?
I'm not MIA; simply enjoying the tail end of a 12-day journey through the Eastern US. I have to say, doing so has only made me angrier at those who so foolishly and flagrantly deny the scientific reality of rapid anthropogenic climate change. On this trip, I've kept myself busy: I've whitewater kayaked in Georgia, fished in Chesapeake Bay, dined sumptuously on local goods in North Carolina, roamed the nation's capital, and hiked the hills of eastern Tennessee. And the one thing that keeps going through my head over and over and over again is this: the greedy and profit-hungry denial industry is stealing all this from me, and my kids, and from theirs.

That really rubs me the wrong way.

Thus, I've decided to drop any pretense of playing nice with the pro-destruction crowd. Upon my return next week (I'm posting this while sitting under a tent on the Delaware shore), I'll be doubling tripling quadrupling my efforts to permanently shout down and shut up all anti-science denialist/contrarian/false "skeptic" types. It may be futile--money talks, and they've got a lot of it--but there's far too much at stake for me to sit idly by and do nothing.
Member Since: November 8, 2009 Posts: 4 Comments: 11138
50. barbamz 6:57 PM GMT on July 04, 2012    
Quote: I'm posting this while sitting under a tent on the Delaware shore ..

Glad to see ya, Nea. I just was looking for you on the main blog ;-) Have a nice time anyway.
Member Since: October 25, 2008 Posts: 24 Comments: 1564
51. OldLeatherneck 7:17 PM GMT on July 04, 2012    
Quoting Neapolitan:
Thus, I've decided to drop any pretense of playing nice with the pro-destruction crowd. Upon my return next week (I'm posting this while sitting under a tent on the Delaware shore), I'll be doubling tripling quadrupling my efforts to permanently shout down and shut up all anti-science denialist/contrarian/false "skeptic" types. It may be futile--money talks, and they've got a lot of it--but there's far too much at stake for me to sit idly by and do nothing.


You're not going into this fight alone!!

Enjoy the remainder of your trip!
Member Since: May 2, 2012 Posts: 0 Comments: 150

Viewing: 1 - 51

Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6Blog Index

New Comment
Community Standards Policy Comments will take a few seconds to appear.
Post Your Comments
Please sign in to post comments.
Not only will you be able to leave comments on this blog, but you'll also have the ability to upload and share your photos in our Wunder Photos section.
About RickyRood
I'm a professor at U Michigan and lead a course on climate change problem solving. These articles include ideas from the course. And no tuition!

Local Weather
Mostly Cloudy
48 °F
Mostly Cloudy
Community Activity